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Taking the Lore literally?

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Karlsefni
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Re: Taking the Lore literally?

Post by Karlsefni »

I would like to state for the record that creationism is never going to be solved because it presupposes an established order in a closed system.
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Re: Taking the Lore literally?

Post by Bathilde »

I think people use literally when they really mean figuratively. Happened again last night when I was at the gym. The reporter, when speaking about the search for Dorner by the police, said "he was literally right under their noses." He meant figurately, and he meant that he was soo close to the cops that rather than saying "he was right under their noses" he thought he's make put more emphasis on it by pretending he was "literally" under thier noses, even though it was still metaphorical.

It's kind of annoying how people have slipped into that habit.

But anyway, I digress. Back to the main topic, there was a section of the germanic symposium video that dealth with literal vs metaphorical interpretation of the lore, here's the video for those interested:



the topic start after 3min 52sec.
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Re: Taking the Lore literally?

Post by Wodenborn »

picking up from earlier and laws - this will run if people are interested..

In 597 Augustine arrived in Kent, converted Aethelberht (whose Frankish wife Bertha had undoubtedly insisted that the Christian mission come to England, and indeed it was the wish of his father in law Chariberht

many many authors claim that the country was Christianised overnight - seemingly embracing this new religion with open arms and zeal.....the truth is very much different.

The opposition to Ch4ristianity was actually stifled at source by the powers that be - and this can be seen in the laws enacted to enforce conformity...One does not make a law if a crime is not being committed

so 100 years after the supposed open arms acceptance of Christianisation we find :

1. The Apostle says: 'No one who serves idols will possess the kingdom of God.' If anyone makes minor sacrifices to demons he will do penance for 1 year; and 10 years for major sacrifices.
2. If any one eats or drinks in ignorance by a heathen shrine he is to promise never to do so again and to do 40 days penance on bread and water. If he does it deliberately, that is to say after a priest has declared that it is sacrilege and the table of demons he shall do pen¬ance on bread and water for thrice 40 days. But if he did it in honour of the demons and to glorify the idol, he is to do penance for 3 years.
3. If anyone sacrifices to demons for a second or a third time he incurs 3 years penance; then 2 years without any offering of communion. In the third five years, at the end of a five year period, he is capable of perfection.
4. If anyone eat what has been sacrificed to idols and was under no compulsion, he is to fast 12 weeks on bread and water; if it was done of necessity he is to fast 6 weeks.
5. If any keep feasts in the abominable places of the heathen, taking and eating their food there, they should be subject to penance for 2 years, and be offered on probation for full two years, and after that be accepted to perfection; when offered test the spirit and discuss the life of each individual.
6. If any do sacrilege, that is summon diviners who practise divination by birds, or does any divination with evil intent, let him do penance for 3 years, and for one of these on bread and water.
7. Christians may not leave the Church of God and go to divination, or name angels or make covens which are known to be forbidden. If any be found serving this occult idolatry, in that he abandons our Lord Jesus Christ, the son of God, and gave himself to idolatry . . .
8. It is unlawful for clerks or laymen, to be sorcerers or inchanters, or to make amulets which are proved to be fetters for the soul, those who act thus we command to be driven from the Church
9. If anyone destroy a person by black magic he is to do penance for 7 years, 3 of these on bread and water.
10. If any use love potions and hurt nobody, if he is a layman he is to do penance for half a year; if he is a clerk, 1 year on bread and water; if he is a subdeacon, he is to do penance for 2 years, 1 year on bread and water; if he is a deacon, 4, 2 on bread and water; if he is priest, 5 years, 3 on bread and water. But if thereby any one deceive a woman of her bringing forth, then he is to do further 3 years penance on bread and water, lest he be accused of homicide.
11. If anyone seeks diviners whom they call prophets, or does any divinations, in that this too is diabolical, let him do penance 5 years, 3 of these on bread and water.
12. If anyone take lots, which they call contrary to the principles of the Saints, or have any lots whatsoever, or take lots with evil intent, or make divination, let him do penance 3 years, 1 on bread and water.
13. If any woman do divinations or diabolical incantations, let her do penance 1 year, or thrice 40 days or 40 days, according to the enormity of the crime of the penitent.
14. If any woman place her son or daughter on the roof for the sake of a cure or in an oven, let her do penance 7 years.
15. If any burn grain where a man has died for the sake of the living or of the house, let him do penance 5 years on bread and water.
16. If any for the health of his little son should pass through a fissure in the ground and should close it after himself with thorns, let him do penance 40 days on bread and water.
17. If any seek out divinations and pursue them in the manner of the heathen, or introduce such men into their houses, for the sake of finding something out by evil arts or to make an expiation, let them be cast out if they be of the clergy; but if they are secular let them after confession be subjected to 5 years of penance, accord¬ing to the rules ordained of old.
18. If any make or perform a vow at trees, or springs, or stones, or boundaries, or anywhere at all except in the house of God, let him do penance for 3 years on bread and water. This is sacrilege or diabolical. If any eat or drink there let him do penance for 1 year on bread and water.
19. If any go at the New Year as a young stag or cow, that is, if he share the habit of wild beasts and is clad in the skins of cattle and puts on the heads of beasts, any such who thus transform them¬selves into the likenesses of beasts are to do 3 years penance.
20. If any one is an astrologer [mathematicus], that is one who changes the mind of a man by the invocation of devils, he is to do 5 years penance, 1 on bread and water.
21. If anyone is a sender of storm, that is to say a sorcerer, he is to do penance 7 years, 3 on bread and water.
22. If anyone makes amulets, which is detestable, he should do 3 years penance, 1 on bread and water.
23. Anyone who makes a habit of auguries and divinations is to do penance 5 years.
24. Any who observe soothsayers, or inchanters, and devilish amulets and dreams and herbs, or who keep holy the fifth day in honour of Jove [Jeudi; or of Thor: Thursday], or New Year's Day, as do the heathen, is to do penance 5 years if a clerk and 3 years if a layman.
25. Those who take care when the moon is eclipsed to practise as they trust by their cries and witchcrafts to defend her in sacriligious fashion are to do penance 5 years. 26. Those who fast in honour of the moon to bring about healing are to do penance 1 year
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For the pagan past I live and one day will die

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Re: Taking the Lore literally?

Post by Wodenborn »

And from the Laws of Cnut 1020-1023

5. And we earnestly forbid every heathen practice.
5.1. It is heathen practice if one worships idols, namely if one worships heathen gods and the sun or the moon, fire or flood, wells or stones or any kind of forest trees, or if one practises witchcraft or encompasses death by any means, either by sacrifice or divination, or takes part in such delusions

so one can see by reading through the lines and the Christian propaganda that Heathenry was alive and well throughout the Anglo-Saxon period - one can also have a hint at some of the practises
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Re: Taking the Lore literally?

Post by Bathilde »

Do you know the source material for these laws?


Also, I agree that laws like these would indicate the christians had to deal with a prevalent pagan population.
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Re: Taking the Lore literally?

Post by Wodenborn »

I used the ready to hand Saxon Age by AJF Scott

However many of the laws are online at :
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/560-975dooms.asp

or if reading Anglo-Saxon is your forte
http://www8.georgetown.edu/departments/ ... html#cap42
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Re: Taking the Lore literally?

Post by Karlsefni »

http://books.google.com/books/about/The ... ojAAAAMAAJ
This book is also a great resource for Anglo Saxon law and how it was affected by waves of cultural change.
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Re: Taking the Lore literally?

Post by Woden Kyn »

I need to read Snorri's stuff but from what I've read about it through comments and reviews, his stories were the Heathen tales that have been Christianized to a degree.

I think there may be a potential that many waves of migrations came through Europe each one attaching their story or beliefs or history to an already developed story. So rather than explaining history and religions or beliefs of certain groups in sequenced classification they simply integrated all the stories into one to include new groups and the "Heathen Family" grew.

This of course is an almost fairy tale way of looking at a complex history and past. By saying that others were indoctrinated into culture allowing the addition of new concepts and characters and tales indicates a multicultural tolerance at a degree in which much of the modern world would strive for. But the reality is that any group of substantial numbers would be more likely be viewed as competitors for the same resources.

There is some hope from the stories themselves that the lateral has truth, the Aesir did seem to get along very well with the Vanir, and although fought with the Jotun, also intermarried with them as well. From this maybe we could conclude there was sometimes conflict, sometimes not. This is a realistic view for anyone I would think.

As far as the basic concepts, even places like Valhalla describing actual events or places, I find this to be highly possible.

Troy was only considered myth, that was until Hienrich Schliemann found its ruins (even the story of him finding Troy is debatable).

No book either in runes, cuneiform, or hieroglyphics has been found and dated as authentic texts of Heathenry, so I would be cautious in stating the word of "so and so".

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