Recon?

[Gemyndig]

The lore is just UPG that has stood the test of time, and has been vetted through experience.

The problem with this idea though is that the elder thew did not stand the test of time. It survived for so long probably because it hadn't been challenged too much by outside forces up to the point of the conversion period, ie - to put it in terms of the worldview of an ancient Heathen - it hadn't had to test its luck and strength against too bad a foe until it met such as Charlemagne. Roll on the religio-economic superpower of its day though in the form of the Holy Roman Empire, and the elder thew just failed spectacularly in terms of its ability to win enough economic and military luck for those tribes who wanted to remain Heathen.

This is a debate I just haven't seen recons really having, but it seems to me to be a rather obvious question. For example, it's precisely because my own Northumbrian Heathen ancestors were thinking like Heathens (ie judging the veracity of thew by the luck in terms of the prosperity, battle victory etc it brought to the community) that they ended up converting to Christianity, since the luck of the Heathen kings just seemed to dwindle.

We might be able to explain this discrepancy to ourselves in modern academic terms by citing the fact that the Christians quite simply had all the money and clout and that's how they beat us ( and therefor it had nothing to do with any supernatural agencies or any considerations of "luck") but this is simply to view the whole thing through a modern lens. To an ancient Heathen it simply meant one of three things - 1)that our own Gods were withholding luck for some reason (ie ? we Heathens were doing something wrong, or perhaps needed to change somehow), 2) the thew and sidu we thought most effective and were used to just wasn't strong enough in the end to win the luck necessary to resist the takeover or 3) the Christian God was just more powerful than ours.

Of course Christians want to believe that number 3) is the truth, but my money's on either number 1) or 2) being more likely. This is a major reason why I think that reconism could turn out actually to be bad for Heathenry if it's taken too far. What if we're simply reviving thew which needed to change anyway?

[Bathilde]

The problem with this idea though is that the elder thew did not stand the test of time. It survived for so long probably because it hadn't been challenged too much by outside forces up to the point of the conversion period, ie - to put it in terms of the worldview of an ancient Heathen - it hadn't had to test its luck and strength against too bad a foe until it met such as Charlemagne. Roll on the religio-economic superpower of its day though in the form of the Holy Roman Empire, and the elder thew just failed spectacularly in terms of its ability to win enough economic and military luck for those tribes who wanted to remain Heathen.

So you think the lore would've been properly vetted had heathenry won the heathen vs christian conversion era? interesting. So, you think christianity won out because the heathen thew didn't instill enough luck, or christianity had more luck?

I don't really attribute the conversion to those factors. It's an interesting thought though.

[Kitta]

Exactly. I agree whole-heartedly. There are things we can learn from the past - a great many things, actually - but we need to add to it, to refine and redefine as needed. Learn and grow. I've repeatedly seen recons fail to do this. I don't even like the term. We don't need to reconstruct what was broken, we need to examine the remains and use what we learn to build something better.

As for why heathenry fell, I think it was just a mundane matter in some respects. Christians had it out for pagans with a vehemence I don't think anyone really expected until it was too late. Look at the atrocities of 'St Olaf' ... it just sickens me. An enemy willing to do such vile things as they did to our heathen ancestors must be driven by the evil of Gullveig herself. I think the Gods like to let humans do our thing for the most part, though. What does it say for heathen humans if the Gods are constantly having to baby sit us and save us from ourselves and keep our faith? I think part of the glory of being heathen is in proving our strength and worth.

[Bathilde]

It's just so weird reading your comments. Everytime you describe recon, it's not something I've ever experienced. And everytime you describe what you think we should do, is exactly what I've experienced.

From my point of view, it's like your arguing against a situation that isn't actually happening and encouraging a solution that is already here.

[Bathilde]

As for why heathenry fell, I think it was just a mundane matter in some respects. Christians had it out for pagans with a vehemence I don't think anyone really expected until it was too late. Look at the atrocities of 'St Olaf' ... it just sickens me. An enemy willing to do such vile things as they did to our heathen ancestors must be driven by the evil of Gullveig herself. I think the Gods like to let humans do our thing for the most part, though. What does it say for heathen humans if the Gods are constantly having to baby sit us and save us from ourselves and keep our faith? I think part of the glory of being heathen is in proving our strength and worth.

I totally agree with this though.

[Kitta]

Again, many recons I've met are like this. They even dress like the ancestors at ceremonies and rites. They would debate the smallest points of the Lore for hours, citing the most obscure sources. I admire their near encyclopedic knowledge of heathen lore, but there never seemed to be much inclination to apply this knowledge to modern day.

This experience is not limited to a few heathen, either. There is quite a heathen community in the St Louis area and I knew two kindreds and a study group's worth of heathens. More recons than not were in some way just too hung up on 'reconstruction.' Even most of the ones I've talked to online are much the same. I don't really know much about where you are or what heathens you know, but the situation I am arguing against is running rampant across the missouri-illinois area.

[Bathilde]

THe heathens I know are mostly from the north east.

[ExileX2]

Reconstruction, to me, means that they try to reconstruct a view of Heathenry that their ancestors worshiped. I don't feel too kindly on it, because a religion stuck in the past becomes stagnant and poisonous in my opinion.

One thing that catches my attention are the Heathens that will dress as their ancestors would have for rites and rituals. Our ancestors didn't do that, as far as I know. The gods are living beings like everyone else - they learn and grow, and our lore shows that to be true. We need to do the same if we are to make our Gods and Ancestors proud, I think. My most quoted piece of advice so to speak is the Law of Kaun ... The journey for wisdom, knowledge, and awareness is an eternal one; those who would honor the Godhin accept the challenge of this sincerely and without expectation.

You seem to be missing the point of reconstruction. Those people that are trying to live in the past are not reconstructionists... their re-enactors or worse re-creators. Reconstructionism is about making a better lense to view the world through, our modern world, and not about trying to do things exactly how they were done in the past. Its about doing what we do today for similar reasons as they were done in the old days.

Erik

[Kitta]

I would call that just basic heathery, honestly. There is a lot in our lore to show a deep respect and reverence for the ancestors and their wisdom so it seems kind of core to me like something all heathens should be trying to study and learn. From what I have seen, the people that were comfortable calling themselves recontructionist were the ones that took it too far - like re-enactors, like you say. The very term itself lends itself to that mindset, it seems.

[Bathilde]

Were you able to ascertain that these recons were how you described through personal experience or through observations on the internet?